Discussion Dates: Fri 28 August to Fri 12 September
1. What would you rate this book out of 10 and why?
Rachel: 7/10 It wasn't a life changer of a book and I don't feel compelled to ever read it again but I greatly enjoyed getting lost in the characters' stories. It had a lot of heart and sincerity to it and I felt a great deal of empathy for the main character of Sabiha. Any novel that explores the trials and tribulations of what it's like to be a woman gets a thumbs up from me!
Jane: 5/10 I am with Rachel... not a life changer and I am not compelled to read it again. I thought it was readable, yes, but felt myself getting frustrated, almost angry at times with some of the themes and some of the characters' actions (specifically Sabiha).
Gen: I loved it! 9/10. SO beautifully written and evocative I was totally immersed in the story and it has really stayed with me. (I was reading it while my children were at their swimming lesson and the woman next to me commented 'wow it must be a good book as you are so immersed in it and then is so much racket going on here!')
Lucy: 8/10 I also really enjoyed it. Not that it was a life changer but I loved to language and the imagery. I was totally engrossed in the beginning but like Jane began to get a bit annoyed with the characters.
Mel: 7/10 - I really enjoyed the book as I was reading it and was pleased that Sharyn had recommended it to me, but I did not give it a lot of thought once I finished it. I was interested in reading about a Paris so different from the one that you see and experience as a tourist. Along a similar vein I am interested in an expatriate experience that is so much more 'real' in terms of connecting with local culture and people than the very sanitized version of local life you get from living in places like HK and Singapore.
Lynne: Maybe 6.5/10. I read this book last year and thought I would be fine to contribute without re-visiting it, so instead I spent my time recently reading "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich". Whoa Mama, 1200 pages written in the 1960's by an American journalist that was a foreign correspondent in Germany at all the crucial times, so he gives this incredibly detailed blow-by-blow description of events that is gripping (and exhausting). Anyway, long story short, mind the pun, I've been annexing Austria and plotting to invade Poland and Lovesong seems to have been pushed from my memory. I recall that I liked it for the beautiful writing and the mix of local and foreign, but it, like Mel, it did not stay with me.
Sharyn: 7/10. I first read this book in 2010 just after the birth of my first child. I obviously really enjoyed it then because I recommended it to Mel. (In fact, I am surprised you read it Mel because I now know that you hate hard cover books!) I didn't love it as much the second time around, which is really interesting because in the intervening four years I have experienced the pain of (secondary) infertility and therefore I can to some extent relate to Sabiha's circumstances. I enjoyed the lesser-known Parisian setting, the gentle storytelling and pondering Sabiha's decision-making but like a lot of you I have not been thinking a lot about it since I put it down. Perhaps because I have read some powerful books for this book club in the interim...
Mel: Sharyn you so know me.... I totally HATE hardcover books, but as you lent me your copy and I was courting your friendship I endured the hardcover!
Lara: 7/10. I found it easy to read and get into, but I didn't have a huge long-lasting connection to the characters. It had a lot of things I enjoy: Paris (and a different part which was cool), Melbourne, Tunisia (I've been curious to go), a unique love story, tough choices, etc. However, sometimes the writing bothered me - a little formulaic or too simple - I don't know. Also, I appreciate that the characters are like people I know or have met, but for some reason, I didn't feel extremely strongly for them. I thought Sabiha's decision was daring and interesting to think about. I just can't see myself doing that to the man I love, but she and John had a different relationship. Also, unlike me, having a daughter had always been at the core of her persona, whereas I've only found out after having one (and now two) how much joy it brings me.
Carissa: 7/10. The interweaving of unconnected places and people and the randomness of the way lives and relationships develop made interesting reading and the style of writing was immediate, straightforward and clearly descriptive of emotions, places and situations. The completeness of Houria and Dom Pakos, as a couple of misfits in Paris was convincing. The pictures of Sabiha's Tunisian home, family, garden and pomegranate tree, the little sitting room under the stairs in Paris, the pond on the Patterners's Australian farm were simple and effective. However, the mysterious feud between Bruno and Nejib's brother, culminating, conveniently in Bruno's death, jarred and seemed contrived. The device of Ken's collecting the story from John, when most of the narrative concerned what Sabiha thought and felt, was distracting, as was the inclusion of the story of Clare, Ken and The Cap(Robin).
2. Ken's daughter says “Love’s never simple. You know that, Dad.” In what ways does Miller explore some of love’s many complications?
Rachel: Mainly through the evolving nature of Sabiha and John's relationship from their first outing together right through to when we see them in their café in Australia. As in any relationship there is that youthful hope and excitement at what the future holds to begin with that piece by piece starts to drip away as life's reality kicks in - wow how cynical do I sound?! It was heart wrenching to see how much of an effect the couple's infertility had on their relationship mainly because it was just so believable. Thos unsaid words lying next to eat other in bed at night, oppressing and suffocating? That would put a toll of any relationship no matter how in love a couple were. Ultimately I think Miller's message is that yes, love is complicated, but it can evolve and be sustained - there's just no 'one' model of how it shouldbe.
Jane: I think Miller explores love in many forms - between family and in intimate relationships. I guess I have a different idea though from Sabiha's idea of love. She seemed to fall in love with John, but it was, right from the outset, a love with conditions. To me, that is not real love. So when those conditions were not met, she acted in a way that I just could not understand. I felt that John had such a deep love for her, but in the end that was not good enough for her. The infertility aspect is really complex and I do not think it is talked about enough in our society... Hmm, love in other forms.. well, love between Sabiha and Houria, love between Sabiha and Bruno (fleeting and lust-driven, if you ask me), love between Sabiha and her father.
Gen: I read in an interview with Alex Miller that his own child had said this to him and in many ways it was the idea that he based the whole book around which is interesting. I liked how he explores the notion that love always involves some level of compromise or sacrifice eg Sabiha loved her father but couldn't live near him, her father loved her but had to let her go away, John and Sabiha both had to compromise to stay together etc
Lucy: He definitely explored the complications. None of the relationships seemed straight forward except perhaps Sabiha and Houria. I think what was highlighted for me as one of the hardest complications to get through was lack of communication. Sabiha and John seem to struggle so much to let each other know what they are feeling. As do Ken and his daughter. As the reader I was often screaming at them to tell each other how they really feel!! And as has been mentioned the sacrifices one has to make for love. Even Houria's feelings of relief when her husband dies despite how much she loved and relied on him. All very complicated.
Mel: The book explores love in many of its messiest forms. The love that Sabiha inherently felt for an unborn (or even procreated) child was interesting to me as it was something I didn't feel before or during my first pregnancy.
Lynne: The myriad of relationships in this book were all complicated and life-like and I found them believable. I thought that the love of a "place" was just as important as the love between people in this book. Pining for home but being stuck in a relationship that left you far away was tough for most of them.
Lara: Gen - I think its really interesting that Alex Miller's child said that to him and that it then started him thinking about all the interconnected love stories. Sometimes kids have the most wisdom. I also think the relationship between Sabiha and her dead grandmother played a huge role in in her life - as a moral compass - with such major impacts. I have only been around Berber culture a small amount when we went to Morocco, but I could imagine their different, yet very strong, way of being and thinking (and how different that would be than in a suburb of Paris).
Carissa: There are painful complications in the distance and lack of communication between Houria and the brother she loved and in the brother's sending his favourite daughter to support her stranger of an aunt, risking never seeing her again. While Houria and Dom seemed inseparable, it comes as a shock to Houria (and to the reader) how quickly and joyfully she embraces life without him. John and his parents do not seem able to express the love that they undoubtedly feel for each other. While John is always ready to tell Sabiha that he loves her, he is always reluctant to investigate the strange moods he observes in her. Sabiha is certain that she loves John, but, driven by her "love" for her unknown daughter, she plans the seduction of Bruno, knowing that it may destroy John's and her relationship. Ken's love for his daughter, Clare, leads him to accept living prospects in his home that he finds abhorrent.
3. Sabiha believes herself destined to be a mother and approaches her seduction of Bruno with a sense of purpose: ‘The time had come for her to take matters into her own hands, just as the woman in her grandmother’s old song had done. She could wait no longer but would go and kill her lion.’ (p.135) How do you feel about Sabiha’s solution – is it understandable and justifiable, or do you find her actions repellent?
Rachel: With the risk of sounding totally immoral, I was completely on board with her plan to seduce Bruno and get what she so desired in life. Again I totally empathised with Sabiha's desperation - she wasn't trying to take Bruno for herself, just simply use him to fill her own dreams and desires. Her desires weren't sexually motivated they were coming from a woman who felt desperately empty both emotionally and physically. I remember the force of my own desires to be a mother and I can't begin to imagine how difficult it must be for women who struggle to achieve that dream. And I like the fact that Miller doesn't leave you with a stereotype that all women must feel this way - it can be no coincidence that she includes the character of Houria who chooses not to have children and is arguably the most content out of all of them.
Jane: I do not think Sabiha's actions were justified. In fact, I was fairly disgusted. I just don't understand how someone could betray someone like that who they are purportedly in love with. Could she not imagine the hurt? The mess? Urgh. Yes, I get that women want to have children, but (and speaking from the point of view of not having children), there are other ways to find meaning from life. But I know most of you ladies have children, so I will not speak my piece too forcefully here. Also, she did not consider anyone else's needs but her own. Did she think about the repercussions that her actions would have for Bruno and his family?
Gen: I couldn't really justify her decision. Speaking personally, I think the person with whom you have a child is very important not just having a child per se at any cost. But saying that I know quite a few people who have had a baby using a sperm donor and are perfectly happy with that so in that sense maybe what she did is just old fashioned IVF? (By the way, did any of you see the Australian Story recently about children born from donors? Really interesting ideas of identity came up, and also the competing rights of the child vs the donor)
Lucy: I think what upset me most about her actions was her total lack of thought and empathy about what she was doing to Bruno. She was so calculated in what she was doing and seemed so hardened to her mission.
Mel: I am edging towards agreeing with Rachel. Sabiha was completely pathological about wanting a child, as many people are with aspects of their lives that they cannot control. Becoming a mother totally consumed her and ate her up. I have not had trouble conceiving, but I certainly know many who have, and their pain and grief is palatable. Taking advantage of another other person is not acceptable but I do understand where she is coming from. She was desperate and saw no other option.
Lynne: This was the one thing that really stuck out in my memory of this book - the image of Sabiha storming through the market, on a mission, with poor Bruno lined up for some no-nonsense jiggy-jig in his van.....what!?! I can't quite understand her burning desire to be a mother, but then again, I fell pregnant 3 times by merely looking at my husband and had 3 babies in 3 years - not much time to be reflective on the matter, though I am grateful for the ease with which it happened. This leaves me in a poor position to analyse "longing" but since you have asked me to judge this woman and her singleminded pursuit of a daughter - then, ok, here goes; maybe her actions were aimed at satisfying her desire for a child and saving her marriage. Or is that so obvious that I am missing something deeper?
Sharyn: I can certainly relate to Sabiha's longing for a child and the feeling that you would do anything to make it happen. I think the book would have been more plausible if it had been set 50+ years ago when the technology wasn't available to help couples like John and Sabiha. There were some fleeting references to medical tests and the couple not being able to afford assisted reproduction but given the lengths that people go to today to get pregnant via the medical route, her route seemed very primitive to me. She chose to shut John out of the process and take matters into her own hand and I think that devalued the relationship, even though I totally sympathise with her motivations.
Lara: I just can't agree with her actions because of the complete lack of empathy for what it would do to Bruno's family, wife (and potentially Bruno himself - although Sabiha figured him to be a different sort of man) - not to mention John. However, I do respect her strength of purpose to get what she wants. I almost feel that if Bruno had been a single guy I would have been at least better about her decision, especially since John sometimes annoyed me in his inability to stand up for himself (very un pc, but true). If John had rejected her - would she have still been ok with her decision? In the end, 11 kids and a loyal wife are without a father...but at least Sabiha's got her baby (that just doesn't seem right to me and I can't square it).
Carissa: I am afraid I find Sabiha's actions repellent, but feel inadequate to judge, as I have not (thanks to my beloved Lucy, whom you all know) had the despair of longing for a daughter and nearing the age when I can no longer hope for one. I have never known a girl/woman, who has been utterly convinced of a daughter or son inside her, even before she fell in love. I can understand longing for a child, but not being convinced that it is inside, waiting to be freed to come to life, nor can I imagine embarking cold-bloodedly and clinically on a plan that risked destroying the lives of a happy family, as well as that of the man I loved.
4. To what extent do you think that Sabiha is responsible for Bruno’s death?
Jane: Not wholly responsible as she did not actually kill him herself, but the circumstances that led to his death sprung from her actions.
Gen: yes 'fraid so
Lucy: Responsible
Mel: She didn't pull the gun, but she did hand him the bullets....
Lynne: culpable homicide.
Sharyn: No, not responsible. The chances that one of her customers would pull a knife was so remote that it breaks the chain of causation for me!
Lara: Not fully responsible, but certainly culpable.
Carissa: Bruno's death seems to me to be contrived by the author, to avoid the complication and untidines of the continued existence of the real father of Sabiha's daughter, let alone his family and the effect on their relationships with each other.
5. Were you surprised by John’s reaction to Sabiha’s confession? Is it the response you expected from his characteror did you expect something different of him?
I just thought this part was not all that well written. It did not seem convincing to me.
Gen: yes I was a bit confused by this bit, thus the 9/10 not 10/10
Lucy: It was frustrating but I think it did fit his character. He obviously loves Sabiha deeply but seemed also a little afraid of her. Not really of her but of hurting her or driving her away. He allowed her to behave badly a lot of the time and seemed to tiptoe around her not wanting to stir things up so I was not that surprised by his reaction. He perhaps also felt some responsibility for Bruno's death and so rejecting Sabiha after that and turning away from her and the child would make that sense of guilt worse.
Lynne: I can't even remember his response. My bad.
Sharyn: I thought that it was totally consistent with his character. He was a gentle, passive man who avoided confrontation.
Lara: Totally believable -- nice, steady guy, but lost without her and afraid of doing anything to drive her away. I wanted him to have a bit more fire, but it was true to his character.
Carissa: The book seemed to lose a lot of momentum at this point, but I did not expect John to react with anger or rejection. His constant reading and immersion in books, even when they were in bed, or when Sabiha was acting strangely, suggested that he had already withdrawn from life, to cope with the unspoken pain of their shared infertility, his homesickness and disillusionment over what he perceived as the failure to reach his potential. His reaction fitted my understanding of his self-effacing, accepting, rather defeated personality.
6. The notions of home and belonging are repeatedly asserted in this novel: ‘No matter how long she (Sabiha) lived in France, she would always be a stranger here; she and John, strangers both of them. Yet Houria had not been a stranger here’ (p.199). How was it, do you think, that Houria made Paris her home and John and Sabiha did not?
Rachel: I think having lived away from the UK for going on 5 years now, this is what most pulled at the heart strings! Neither John or Sabiha chose to be in Paris, they both fell into being there and I got the sense that after a while, they couldn't go back but nor could they go forward. They were both kind of stuck in a state on inertia - much like my current life in Singapore ha ha!
Gen: having been an ex-pat (briefly compared to some of you long haul ex-pats!) I really liked reading this exploration of home and belonging... especially now that I am home!
Lucy: I think the difference between theirs and Houria's sense of belonging was partly their own making. They did not seem committed to that life and neither of them felt that they would be there forever. That was not how Houria felt. John and Sabiha also arrived later in life and so presumably always sounded foreign. John felt his French was never good enough to 'let him in'. I think language plays a huge part in your sense of belonging to a place. Although I was born in Hong Kong and have lived here most of my life I don't speak Cantonese and so definitely feel an outsider from that point of view. It will be interesting to see how this differs for our children who are being educated in the local system and so do speak Cantonese. I wasn't quite sure what to make of Ken's feelings about Venice. (Was it Venice? I can't now remember.)
Jane: Wow, Lucy, wonderful that your children speak Cantonese.
Mel: I agree with Lucy about the importance of language to bind you to a place and its people. And I think it is so awesome Lucy that you are recognizing something from your childhood that you felt you missed out on and not repeating it with your children. It must be thrilling to hear the girls speak Cantonese. One thing that I couldn't fathom was how long John stayed away without visiting 'home'. Having the chance to reconnect with people, places, smells, music is very important. I have been in Asia nearly 9 years but no more than 12 months has gone by without visiting Australia and 'touching base'.
Lynne: maybe they loved their home (or memories of home) more than they loved each other.
Sharyn: As an expat, it took my breath away when John described his feelings about living in Paris: "It was beautiful and strange still, all of it, and he loved it in a quite painful way and wanted to hold it forever in his memory. It was sacred, to be sure, but even if he lived in this place for the rest of his life it would never be real. He could not enter the reality of it. It stood away from him, and he was not admitted to it". I think it's a question of whether you truly embrace a place as home, or whether you hold it at bay and resist that notion. I know that I have resisted that notion of HK as being a home, despite living here for almost 10 years. John definitely resisted it. He viewed Australia as his 'reality' and wanted his children to have an Australian upbringing.
Carissa: I think Houria had a strong, positive character. While Dom Pakos was alive, she CHOSE to play a role that was purely supportive of Dom. Only when that role was no longer needed did she show that she was a far better cook than he had been. It was then that she decided to have short hair like the Parisian women around her. She thought with love of her family and, especially her brother, but she CHOSE to continue to live apart from them. She did not live with compromises. She made choices. Sabiha and John, separately, long for their own homes and cultures and feel resistant to each other's. It seems that they do not have enough money to go back and visit their families and so they each spend time dreaming. John longs for any children they may have to grow up in Australia, the way he did. Sabiha seems very hostile towards Australia, while she longs to take the daughter of her imagination back to El Djem and to her father. She does not include John in her dreams. Their relationship is based on a foreign language to both of them and so they both seem detached from France and each other.
7. What is the significance of the novel’s title, Lovesong? Why do you think Miller chose it?
Rachel: This was a story about the telling of stories either through song or writing - the passing down of life's experiences from one generation to the next. The fact that Sabiha's decision to seduce Bruno is influenced by the songs of her ancestors shows us I think that the struggles we face as women are struggles that are as old as time. For me the 'song' in Lovesong symbolises the unity between women and the importance of story telling to remind us that we are not alone in our experiences.
Carissa: The lovesong seems to be the one sung by Sabiha and her Grandmother. It is about surviving all odds throughout generations of women. Sabiha and Houria sang a lot together, but not the songs that bound Sabiha to her maternal grandmother. Sabiha sang her grandmother's songs to the Tunisians on Saturday nights. John was outside all this, just as he was outside Sabiha's dreams and much of what motivated Sabiha.
8. Is there anything else that you would like to say or ask about ‘Lovesong’?
Rachel: Food! The descriptions of the food and those little honey pastries literally made my mouth water!
Gen: yes I agree, especially as I have recently been diagnosed with coeliac disease so unfortunately can't eat pastries ever again!!!
Lucy: Oh Gen, I am sorry.
Rachel: Gen you poor thing. I have colitis which isn't nearly anywhere near as bad as coeliac disease but has had me on the SCD diet craving bread and pastries like you. I'll have to get your email address from Mel so I can forward you some fantastic websites that got me through bad times - there are some amazing things you can do with coconut flour and almond flour!
Lynne: Yes, Rachel, the food. Made me so hungry. Made me want to open a cafe in Paris with my husband. And to the ladies with coeliac and colitis, my heart goes out to you. Recently spent the weekend with my old school bestie and she has Crohn's disease and her diet is a nightmare. Pizza on spelt bread bases would have to be the most unappetising thing I have ever seen - looked and tasted like cardboard!
Sharyn: Sorry to hear that Gen. Hopefully you can find some yummy permissible treats! Back onto the book, I really think Alex Miller is underrated as a writer. One of his earlier books, Journey to the Stone Country, is amazing and should be on every Australian young adult's reading list. I have a copy of The Ancestor Game at home which I must get around to reading...
Lara: I'm with you Rachel! Was wishing we could have our book club session with those delicious little pastries and a coffee. In Paris. So sorry to hear the coeliac diagnosis, Gen. At least there are a lot more options available now than 5 or 10 years ago, but it doesn't make it any less of a pain. On the book --> I was in Minnesota in August and went into a bookstore to grab Lovesong. They looked and searched on the computer until they realised it wasn't even in print in the US. Back to the Kindle. I am grateful for being exposed to interesting books like these due to you ladies. Bring on number 17!
Carissa: I agree about food and coffee. The best moments in John's and Sabiha's lives, as their difficulties increased, were when one or other went down to the kitchen in the morning to heat the milk and make the coffee (always supervised by the cat). You could feel the comfort of cradling the coffee bowls in their cupped hands. The descriptions of pastries, aromas and the meals in the cafe were wonderful. I loved the writing style.
I am so sorry, both Gen and Rachel, about your dietary restrictions. Having no will power, I cannot imagine not being able to eat delicious pastries - and NUTS, which I find irresistible. I do hope the internet will provide some excellent solutions.
1. What would you rate this book out of 10 and why?
Rachel: 7/10 It wasn't a life changer of a book and I don't feel compelled to ever read it again but I greatly enjoyed getting lost in the characters' stories. It had a lot of heart and sincerity to it and I felt a great deal of empathy for the main character of Sabiha. Any novel that explores the trials and tribulations of what it's like to be a woman gets a thumbs up from me!
Jane: 5/10 I am with Rachel... not a life changer and I am not compelled to read it again. I thought it was readable, yes, but felt myself getting frustrated, almost angry at times with some of the themes and some of the characters' actions (specifically Sabiha).
Gen: I loved it! 9/10. SO beautifully written and evocative I was totally immersed in the story and it has really stayed with me. (I was reading it while my children were at their swimming lesson and the woman next to me commented 'wow it must be a good book as you are so immersed in it and then is so much racket going on here!')
Lucy: 8/10 I also really enjoyed it. Not that it was a life changer but I loved to language and the imagery. I was totally engrossed in the beginning but like Jane began to get a bit annoyed with the characters.
Mel: 7/10 - I really enjoyed the book as I was reading it and was pleased that Sharyn had recommended it to me, but I did not give it a lot of thought once I finished it. I was interested in reading about a Paris so different from the one that you see and experience as a tourist. Along a similar vein I am interested in an expatriate experience that is so much more 'real' in terms of connecting with local culture and people than the very sanitized version of local life you get from living in places like HK and Singapore.
Lynne: Maybe 6.5/10. I read this book last year and thought I would be fine to contribute without re-visiting it, so instead I spent my time recently reading "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich". Whoa Mama, 1200 pages written in the 1960's by an American journalist that was a foreign correspondent in Germany at all the crucial times, so he gives this incredibly detailed blow-by-blow description of events that is gripping (and exhausting). Anyway, long story short, mind the pun, I've been annexing Austria and plotting to invade Poland and Lovesong seems to have been pushed from my memory. I recall that I liked it for the beautiful writing and the mix of local and foreign, but it, like Mel, it did not stay with me.
Sharyn: 7/10. I first read this book in 2010 just after the birth of my first child. I obviously really enjoyed it then because I recommended it to Mel. (In fact, I am surprised you read it Mel because I now know that you hate hard cover books!) I didn't love it as much the second time around, which is really interesting because in the intervening four years I have experienced the pain of (secondary) infertility and therefore I can to some extent relate to Sabiha's circumstances. I enjoyed the lesser-known Parisian setting, the gentle storytelling and pondering Sabiha's decision-making but like a lot of you I have not been thinking a lot about it since I put it down. Perhaps because I have read some powerful books for this book club in the interim...
Mel: Sharyn you so know me.... I totally HATE hardcover books, but as you lent me your copy and I was courting your friendship I endured the hardcover!
Lara: 7/10. I found it easy to read and get into, but I didn't have a huge long-lasting connection to the characters. It had a lot of things I enjoy: Paris (and a different part which was cool), Melbourne, Tunisia (I've been curious to go), a unique love story, tough choices, etc. However, sometimes the writing bothered me - a little formulaic or too simple - I don't know. Also, I appreciate that the characters are like people I know or have met, but for some reason, I didn't feel extremely strongly for them. I thought Sabiha's decision was daring and interesting to think about. I just can't see myself doing that to the man I love, but she and John had a different relationship. Also, unlike me, having a daughter had always been at the core of her persona, whereas I've only found out after having one (and now two) how much joy it brings me.
Carissa: 7/10. The interweaving of unconnected places and people and the randomness of the way lives and relationships develop made interesting reading and the style of writing was immediate, straightforward and clearly descriptive of emotions, places and situations. The completeness of Houria and Dom Pakos, as a couple of misfits in Paris was convincing. The pictures of Sabiha's Tunisian home, family, garden and pomegranate tree, the little sitting room under the stairs in Paris, the pond on the Patterners's Australian farm were simple and effective. However, the mysterious feud between Bruno and Nejib's brother, culminating, conveniently in Bruno's death, jarred and seemed contrived. The device of Ken's collecting the story from John, when most of the narrative concerned what Sabiha thought and felt, was distracting, as was the inclusion of the story of Clare, Ken and The Cap(Robin).
2. Ken's daughter says “Love’s never simple. You know that, Dad.” In what ways does Miller explore some of love’s many complications?
Rachel: Mainly through the evolving nature of Sabiha and John's relationship from their first outing together right through to when we see them in their café in Australia. As in any relationship there is that youthful hope and excitement at what the future holds to begin with that piece by piece starts to drip away as life's reality kicks in - wow how cynical do I sound?! It was heart wrenching to see how much of an effect the couple's infertility had on their relationship mainly because it was just so believable. Thos unsaid words lying next to eat other in bed at night, oppressing and suffocating? That would put a toll of any relationship no matter how in love a couple were. Ultimately I think Miller's message is that yes, love is complicated, but it can evolve and be sustained - there's just no 'one' model of how it shouldbe.
Jane: I think Miller explores love in many forms - between family and in intimate relationships. I guess I have a different idea though from Sabiha's idea of love. She seemed to fall in love with John, but it was, right from the outset, a love with conditions. To me, that is not real love. So when those conditions were not met, she acted in a way that I just could not understand. I felt that John had such a deep love for her, but in the end that was not good enough for her. The infertility aspect is really complex and I do not think it is talked about enough in our society...
Hmm, love in other forms.. well, love between Sabiha and Houria, love between Sabiha and Bruno (fleeting and lust-driven, if you ask me), love between Sabiha and her father.
Gen: I read in an interview with Alex Miller that his own child had said this to him and in many ways it was the idea that he based the whole book around which is interesting. I liked how he explores the notion that love always involves some level of compromise or sacrifice eg Sabiha loved her father but couldn't live near him, her father loved her but had to let her go away, John and Sabiha both had to compromise to stay together etc
Lucy: He definitely explored the complications. None of the relationships seemed straight forward except perhaps Sabiha and Houria. I think what was highlighted for me as one of the hardest complications to get through was lack of communication. Sabiha and John seem to struggle so much to let each other know what they are feeling. As do Ken and his daughter. As the reader I was often screaming at them to tell each other how they really feel!! And as has been mentioned the sacrifices one has to make for love. Even Houria's feelings of relief when her husband dies despite how much she loved and relied on him. All very complicated.
Mel: The book explores love in many of its messiest forms. The love that Sabiha inherently felt for an unborn (or even procreated) child was interesting to me as it was something I didn't feel before or during my first pregnancy.
Lynne: The myriad of relationships in this book were all complicated and life-like and I found them believable. I thought that the love of a "place" was just as important as the love between people in this book. Pining for home but being stuck in a relationship that left you far away was tough for most of them.
Lara: Gen - I think its really interesting that Alex Miller's child said that to him and that it then started him thinking about all the interconnected love stories. Sometimes kids have the most wisdom. I also think the relationship between Sabiha and her dead grandmother played a huge role in in her life - as a moral compass - with such major impacts. I have only been around Berber culture a small amount when we went to Morocco, but I could imagine their different, yet very strong, way of being and thinking (and how different that would be than in a suburb of Paris).
Carissa: There are painful complications in the distance and lack of communication between Houria and the brother she loved and in the brother's sending his favourite daughter to support her stranger of an aunt, risking never seeing her again. While Houria and Dom seemed inseparable, it comes as a shock to Houria (and to the reader) how quickly and joyfully she embraces life without him. John and his parents do not seem able to express the love that they undoubtedly feel for each other. While John is always ready to tell Sabiha that he loves her, he is always reluctant to investigate the strange moods he observes in her. Sabiha is certain that she loves John, but, driven by her "love" for her unknown daughter, she plans the seduction of Bruno, knowing that it may destroy John's and her relationship. Ken's love for his daughter, Clare, leads him to accept living prospects in his home that he finds abhorrent.
3. Sabiha believes herself destined to be a mother and approaches her seduction of Bruno with a sense of purpose: ‘The time had come for her to take matters into her own hands, just as the woman in her grandmother’s old song had done. She could wait no longer but would go and kill her lion.’ (p.135) How do you feel about Sabiha’s solution – is it understandable and justifiable, or do you find her actions repellent?
Rachel: With the risk of sounding totally immoral, I was completely on board with her plan to seduce Bruno and get what she so desired in life. Again I totally empathised with Sabiha's desperation - she wasn't trying to take Bruno for herself, just simply use him to fill her own dreams and desires. Her desires weren't sexually motivated they were coming from a woman who felt desperately empty both emotionally and physically. I remember the force of my own desires to be a mother and I can't begin to imagine how difficult it must be for women who struggle to achieve that dream. And I like the fact that Miller doesn't leave you with a stereotype that all women must feel this way - it can be no coincidence that she includes the character of Houria who chooses not to have children and is arguably the most content out of all of them.
Jane: I do not think Sabiha's actions were justified. In fact, I was fairly disgusted. I just don't understand how someone could betray someone like that who they are purportedly in love with. Could she not imagine the hurt? The mess? Urgh. Yes, I get that women want to have children, but (and speaking from the point of view of not having children), there are other ways to find meaning from life. But I know most of you ladies have children, so I will not speak my piece too forcefully here. Also, she did not consider anyone else's needs but her own. Did she think about the repercussions that her actions would have for Bruno and his family?
Gen: I couldn't really justify her decision. Speaking personally, I think the person with whom you have a child is very important not just having a child per se at any cost. But saying that I know quite a few people who have had a baby using a sperm donor and are perfectly happy with that so in that sense maybe what she did is just old fashioned IVF? (By the way, did any of you see the Australian Story recently about children born from donors? Really interesting ideas of identity came up, and also the competing rights of the child vs the donor)
Lucy: I think what upset me most about her actions was her total lack of thought and empathy about what she was doing to Bruno. She was so calculated in what she was doing and seemed so hardened to her mission.
Mel: I am edging towards agreeing with Rachel. Sabiha was completely pathological about wanting a child, as many people are with aspects of their lives that they cannot control. Becoming a mother totally consumed her and ate her up. I have not had trouble conceiving, but I certainly know many who have, and their pain and grief is palatable. Taking advantage of another other person is not acceptable but I do understand where she is coming from. She was desperate and saw no other option.
Lynne: This was the one thing that really stuck out in my memory of this book - the image of Sabiha storming through the market, on a mission, with poor Bruno lined up for some no-nonsense jiggy-jig in his van.....what!?! I can't quite understand her burning desire to be a mother, but then again, I fell pregnant 3 times by merely looking at my husband and had 3 babies in 3 years - not much time to be reflective on the matter, though I am grateful for the ease with which it happened. This leaves me in a poor position to analyse "longing" but since you have asked me to judge this woman and her singleminded pursuit of a daughter - then, ok, here goes; maybe her actions were aimed at satisfying her desire for a child and saving her marriage. Or is that so obvious that I am missing something deeper?
Sharyn: I can certainly relate to Sabiha's longing for a child and the feeling that you would do anything to make it happen. I think the book would have been more plausible if it had been set 50+ years ago when the technology wasn't available to help couples like John and Sabiha. There were some fleeting references to medical tests and the couple not being able to afford assisted reproduction but given the lengths that people go to today to get pregnant via the medical route, her route seemed very primitive to me. She chose to shut John out of the process and take matters into her own hand and I think that devalued the relationship, even though I totally sympathise with her motivations.
Lara: I just can't agree with her actions because of the complete lack of empathy for what it would do to Bruno's family, wife (and potentially Bruno himself - although Sabiha figured him to be a different sort of man) - not to mention John. However, I do respect her strength of purpose to get what she wants. I almost feel that if Bruno had been a single guy I would have been at least better about her decision, especially since John sometimes annoyed me in his inability to stand up for himself (very un pc, but true). If John had rejected her - would she have still been ok with her decision? In the end, 11 kids and a loyal wife are without a father...but at least Sabiha's got her baby (that just doesn't seem right to me and I can't square it).
Carissa: I am afraid I find Sabiha's actions repellent, but feel inadequate to judge, as I have not (thanks to my beloved Lucy, whom you all know) had the despair of longing for a daughter and nearing the age when I can no longer hope for one. I have never known a girl/woman, who has been utterly convinced of a daughter or son inside her, even before she fell in love. I can understand longing for a child, but not being convinced that it is inside, waiting to be freed to come to life, nor can I imagine embarking cold-bloodedly and clinically on a plan that risked destroying the lives of a happy family, as well as that of the man I loved.
4. To what extent do you think that Sabiha is responsible for Bruno’s death?
Jane: Not wholly responsible as she did not actually kill him herself, but the circumstances that led to his death sprung from her actions.
Gen: yes 'fraid so
Lucy: Responsible
Mel: She didn't pull the gun, but she did hand him the bullets....
Lynne: culpable homicide.
Sharyn: No, not responsible. The chances that one of her customers would pull a knife was so remote that it breaks the chain of causation for me!
Lara: Not fully responsible, but certainly culpable.
Carissa: Bruno's death seems to me to be contrived by the author, to avoid the complication and untidines of the continued existence of the real father of Sabiha's daughter, let alone his family and the effect on their relationships with each other.
5. Were you surprised by John’s reaction to Sabiha’s confession? Is it the response you expected from his characteror did you expect something different of him?
I just thought this part was not all that well written. It did not seem convincing to me.
Gen: yes I was a bit confused by this bit, thus the 9/10 not 10/10
Lucy: It was frustrating but I think it did fit his character. He obviously loves Sabiha deeply but seemed also a little afraid of her. Not really of her but of hurting her or driving her away. He allowed her to behave badly a lot of the time and seemed to tiptoe around her not wanting to stir things up so I was not that surprised by his reaction. He perhaps also felt some responsibility for Bruno's death and so rejecting Sabiha after that and turning away from her and the child would make that sense of guilt worse.
Lynne: I can't even remember his response. My bad.
Sharyn: I thought that it was totally consistent with his character. He was a gentle, passive man who avoided confrontation.
Lara: Totally believable -- nice, steady guy, but lost without her and afraid of doing anything to drive her away. I wanted him to have a bit more fire, but it was true to his character.
Carissa: The book seemed to lose a lot of momentum at this point, but I did not expect John to react with anger or rejection. His constant reading and immersion in books, even when they were in bed, or when Sabiha was acting strangely, suggested that he had already withdrawn from life, to cope with the unspoken pain of their shared infertility, his homesickness and disillusionment over what he perceived as the failure to reach his potential. His reaction fitted my understanding of his self-effacing, accepting, rather defeated personality.
6. The notions of home and belonging are repeatedly asserted in this novel: ‘No matter how long she (Sabiha) lived in France, she would always be a stranger here; she and John, strangers both of them. Yet Houria had not been a stranger here’ (p.199). How was it, do you think, that Houria made Paris her home and John and Sabiha did not?
Rachel: I think having lived away from the UK for going on 5 years now, this is what most pulled at the heart strings! Neither John or Sabiha chose to be in Paris, they both fell into being there and I got the sense that after a while, they couldn't go back but nor could they go forward. They were both kind of stuck in a state on inertia - much like my current life in Singapore ha ha!
Gen: having been an ex-pat (briefly compared to some of you long haul ex-pats!) I really liked reading this exploration of home and belonging... especially now that I am home!
Lucy: I think the difference between theirs and Houria's sense of belonging was partly their own making. They did not seem committed to that life and neither of them felt that they would be there forever. That was not how Houria felt. John and Sabiha also arrived later in life and so presumably always sounded foreign. John felt his French was never good enough to 'let him in'. I think language plays a huge part in your sense of belonging to a place. Although I was born in Hong Kong and have lived here most of my life I don't speak Cantonese and so definitely feel an outsider from that point of view. It will be interesting to see how this differs for our children who are being educated in the local system and so do speak Cantonese. I wasn't quite sure what to make of Ken's feelings about Venice. (Was it Venice? I can't now remember.)
Jane: Wow, Lucy, wonderful that your children speak Cantonese.
Mel: I agree with Lucy about the importance of language to bind you to a place and its people. And I think it is so awesome Lucy that you are recognizing something from your childhood that you felt you missed out on and not repeating it with your children. It must be thrilling to hear the girls speak Cantonese. One thing that I couldn't fathom was how long John stayed away without visiting 'home'. Having the chance to reconnect with people, places, smells, music is very important. I have been in Asia nearly 9 years but no more than 12 months has gone by without visiting Australia and 'touching base'.
Lynne: maybe they loved their home (or memories of home) more than they loved each other.
Sharyn: As an expat, it took my breath away when John described his feelings about living in Paris: "It was beautiful and strange still, all of it, and he loved it in a quite painful way and wanted to hold it forever in his memory. It was sacred, to be sure, but even if he lived in this place for the rest of his life it would never be real. He could not enter the reality of it. It stood away from him, and he was not admitted to it". I think it's a question of whether you truly embrace a place as home, or whether you hold it at bay and resist that notion. I know that I have resisted that notion of HK as being a home, despite living here for almost 10 years. John definitely resisted it. He viewed Australia as his 'reality' and wanted his children to have an Australian upbringing.
Carissa: I think Houria had a strong, positive character. While Dom Pakos was alive, she CHOSE to play a role that was purely supportive of Dom. Only when that role was no longer needed did she show that she was a far better cook than he had been. It was then that she decided to have short hair like the Parisian women around her. She thought with love of her family and, especially her brother, but she CHOSE to continue to live apart from them. She did not live with compromises. She made choices. Sabiha and John, separately, long for their own homes and cultures and feel resistant to each other's. It seems that they do not have enough money to go back and visit their families and so they each spend time dreaming. John longs for any children they may have to grow up in Australia, the way he did. Sabiha seems very hostile towards Australia, while she longs to take the daughter of her imagination back to El Djem and to her father. She does not include John in her dreams. Their relationship is based on a foreign language to both of them and so they both seem detached from France and each other.
7. What is the significance of the novel’s title, Lovesong? Why do you think Miller chose it?
Rachel: This was a story about the telling of stories either through song or writing - the passing down of life's experiences from one generation to the next. The fact that Sabiha's decision to seduce Bruno is influenced by the songs of her ancestors shows us I think that the struggles we face as women are struggles that are as old as time. For me the 'song' in Lovesong symbolises the unity between women and the importance of story telling to remind us that we are not alone in our experiences.
Carissa: The lovesong seems to be the one sung by Sabiha and her Grandmother. It is about surviving all odds throughout generations of women. Sabiha and Houria sang a lot together, but not the songs that bound Sabiha to her maternal grandmother. Sabiha sang her grandmother's songs to the Tunisians on Saturday nights. John was outside all this, just as he was outside Sabiha's dreams and much of what motivated Sabiha.
8. Is there anything else that you would like to say or ask about ‘Lovesong’?
Rachel: Food! The descriptions of the food and those little honey pastries literally made my mouth water!
Gen: yes I agree, especially as I have recently been diagnosed with coeliac disease so unfortunately can't eat pastries ever again!!!
Lucy: Oh Gen, I am sorry.
Rachel: Gen you poor thing. I have colitis which isn't nearly anywhere near as bad as coeliac disease but has had me on the SCD diet craving bread and pastries like you. I'll have to get your email address from Mel so I can forward you some fantastic websites that got me through bad times - there are some amazing things you can do with coconut flour and almond flour!
Gen: thanks Rachel I would love that! It is genhall76@gmail.com
Lynne: Yes, Rachel, the food. Made me so hungry. Made me want to open a cafe in Paris with my husband. And to the ladies with coeliac and colitis, my heart goes out to you. Recently spent the weekend with my old school bestie and she has Crohn's disease and her diet is a nightmare. Pizza on spelt bread bases would have to be the most unappetising thing I have ever seen - looked and tasted like cardboard!
Sharyn: Sorry to hear that Gen. Hopefully you can find some yummy permissible treats! Back onto the book, I really think Alex Miller is underrated as a writer. One of his earlier books, Journey to the Stone Country, is amazing and should be on every Australian young adult's reading list. I have a copy of The Ancestor Game at home which I must get around to reading...
Lara: I'm with you Rachel! Was wishing we could have our book club session with those delicious little pastries and a coffee. In Paris. So sorry to hear the coeliac diagnosis, Gen. At least there are a lot more options available now than 5 or 10 years ago, but it doesn't make it any less of a pain. On the book --> I was in Minnesota in August and went into a bookstore to grab Lovesong. They looked and searched on the computer until they realised it wasn't even in print in the US. Back to the Kindle. I am grateful for being exposed to interesting books like these due to you ladies. Bring on number 17!
Carissa: I agree about food and coffee. The best moments in John's and Sabiha's lives, as their difficulties increased, were when one or other went down to the kitchen in the morning to heat the milk and make the coffee (always supervised by the cat). You could feel the comfort of cradling the coffee bowls in their cupped hands. The descriptions of pastries, aromas and the meals in the cafe were wonderful. I loved the writing style.
I am so sorry, both Gen and Rachel, about your dietary restrictions. Having no will power, I cannot imagine not being able to eat delicious pastries - and NUTS, which I find irresistible. I do hope the internet will provide some excellent solutions.